You know, initially people said, you know, maybe Hanif may be possessed. You know, which is kind of a cultural or religious thing to say, well actually because mental illness nobody, because nobody wants to acknowledge that it’s an illness. We put it to an unknown external factor which is fine, you know, if that’s as a way for coping. And in my experience, you know, being a Muslim I can understand why many Muslims around the world and especially in the UK, you know, Muslims of different faith or different Muslims of different culture, you know, whether you’re Indian, Pakistani, Bengali or others because nobody wants to acknowledge that you have a psychological or psychological distress or mental health problem or issue. It’s easy in a sense, it’s a much better way to cope by actually saying it or explaining it that, you know, that it could be jinn possession or external possession. Because as Muslims we believe in jinn possession which is an unseen in terms of, you know, it’s an unseen identity, you know. And we believe in it. So it’s easy for us to cope because actually I mean he’s or she’s possessed, rather than actually come to terms with actually there might be something, you know, psychologically not well with the person, you know. Could be, you know. And of course with myself that was also explored in terms of, you know, to say well actually perhaps, you know, but.

But I think I was glad to an extent that, you know, that I was, that I did go and see a psychiatrist and got medication because, you know, that’s what helped me. And, and I always say fine you know, prayers, faith can always help but sometimes you need medication as well, you know. And the combination of the two actually perhaps might be, it certainly was for me because I think, you know, from a faith, you know, kind of mixing faith in terms of issues about religion, faith probably prayers and faith, you know. My parents because when I was, when I was ill and I was on medication and I remember sleeping for almost eighteen, twenty hours a day because the dosage that I was on lithium, I think I don’t know whether it was it was my highs but, you know, the kind of experience that I remember is I used to just take my medication and then I was knocked out until so to speak.

And I was probably sleeping a lot and just waking up and just eating a lot because that was also probably part of why I put on some weight. But of course, you know, his faith that, you know, his son will get well and, you know, all that counts. So I think that, you know, was also I’m sure. And my own kind of, you know, belief systems I know very strongly, you know, say one cannot, it’s an illness one needs to acknowledge that it’s an illness, you know. And you need, you need some type of help and support. And for me, you know, lithium was very effective for me. But alongside, you know, my own faith and people around me was also helpful. So I think a combination, you know, for. And, and I always joke in my language or in terms of, you know, to say, you know, and I’m not sure whether I can explain it here but nevertheless I will, you know. And of course I speak Urdu and a couple of other of languages. But most often people say, well I say, ‘Well there is no one cure,’ you know. I say for me it’s ‘Dua and dawa’ which translate as prayers and medicine. A combination could be a, could be useful or, you know, could be a cure. And for some if it’s an illness then prayers on its own actually will be, will be useful and helpful, but it’s not actually going to actually cure to a, especially if you have an illness like, you know, bipolar or manic depression. You know. I haven’t come across anybody whos been, whos actually got, got well just by praying. You know, so I always say, you know, in, in our language or, you know, or if I’m asked to talk about my experience, you know, I always

Yes, prayer does help. But sometimes when the people talk about it, they say they do black magic or stuff like that. Then you get scared. Then you don’t know what to trust.

Who says about black magic?

It’s like, you know, like Asian ladies, like they be poorly, and the people say that, ‘Oh, they’re doing black magic on you. And that’s what it is. And then because I’ve been in that, what you were saying, I’ve been, and I were well enough, I was scared. And the, the, when the woman talk, something come bad out of. And then you, you think, you get scared, you think. ‘What to trust?’

So what happened? Sorry. Tell me again what happened. You, you went to see someone?

Yes, I went to see someone.

Who, who was that then you went to see?

It’s like really. Bede. Like you’ve mentioned it now. Bede, we call in Asian, Bede. I don’t know what you call it. Blesser. Like blesser. Yes, we went there. And I used to have like a problem with graves, stuff like that. I got that out there.

So how did that help? What happened? You don’t know?

He just given me like, he asked me to read and stuff like that. And got, then went to about few years, I got, because he prayed for me, I know God give it to you, I got son as well with going there. I got son. And then afterwards like one woman, she, her blessings didn’t come right. And she were talking, she goes, ‘Oh, God, you never believe him, because they have like magic or stuff like that. And that got me scared. And I rung him up. And that’s straight person I am, that I can’t take it. Once I’m scared, I can’t take it. I picked the phone up and I said, ‘I’m scared of you. He goes, ‘Oh, my God. He goes to my husband, ‘Your wife, wife’s forward, you know, she says it in your face. And he goes, ‘We don’t mind what she thinks, because she gets that fear and just in her mind tells her and stuff like that. And he didn’t mind since I didn’t ring him up and I didn’t talk to him. But my husband goes. Yes.

Okay. And did you say there’s something, someone had said something and something bad happened?

Yes. But it’s is, is not them. Like some people say it. It’s like some people, like they can’t control their selves. Or they only can pray for you. Is, God does help you. Like I come here. I didn’t know I’m going to do an interview. But it’s like I talk out what my feeling is. I didn’t know it was going to happen like that when I came in. And it’s like God always do best for you. We believe that way. And like when the bad day, we can’t say, we can’t blame on you, say, ‘Oh, I came here and that’s why I broke my foot’ or stuff like that. If it happens, it happens, and that’s what it is. And now I’m starting, because I think I’m maturer now, and I’m realising stuff. Before I used to be like panicking, and scary. I used to be like, anybody fall out with me, I feel guilty. Now I’m not. I just to be, probably that my body’s changed to a different woman. I’m all different now. Nobody come bothers me, nothing now. Because my sister used to be fall out with me, I used to run out and please like, ‘Sorry’ like that. Now I’m not. I’ve got stubborn [Laughs].

So when, you know, when these prayers, you think they were, were helping?

Yes, they help yeah.

Do you think, how, how do you think they helped? Is that because you think, well, do you think the, the, the, the things that you needed help with were, were something to do with God in the

I was still suffering, I used to feel awful. I did not enjoy anything, I would only feel nice if I sat down quietly on my own. So at that time I asked my husband to give up work. But he did not, used to go out with them to the park for fresh air. It went on like this for about six months, six months. After that my husband planned to take me to Mecca for a pilgrimage. He thought that if we went there Allah would fix all the problems. At that time I stopped eating for about a month.

You lost your appetite?

Lost my appetite totally. So he took me to the pilgrimage. We stayed there for two weeks.

All of you?

All of us, everyone and we stayed for about nine days. After that he said let’s go to Bangladesh. So went to Bangladesh. We stayed there for about one and a half to two months. After we went there they gave me a charm. It’s called by or something; said that it would get better. So after getting to Bangladesh there was some change. I started eating again from the second day I was in Mecca, I started eating. The suffering was less than before.

Was it after going to Bangladesh?

After going to Bangladesh

Now auntie, I am asking questions because a lot of the ladies go to the Mullahs and we want to find out about that did any of that help you?

I feel that both of them helped me.

What did they give you? A talisman?

They gave me special water and oil and told me that somebody did a spell on me. So a talisman normally works against magic. Towards the end I myself got treatment from a Mullah, I felt that helped. After a little while I got better.

Oh yes, praying helps in a sense, that it’s not bottling things up, right, you just pray, and God is not going to argue and contradict you. And you can pray any time, you give up your load like problems aired is problem shared and the famous hymn, ‘What a friend we have in Jesus, all our griefs and sins to bear. But what would help really is praying and meditating, if you pray, and if you meditate on some scripture verses. He cares for you. You know. He knows your’ he has great plans for you. So like that. ‘Yea though I walk through the Valley of Shadow of Death, I will be with you. So a person can pray and get a Bible verse and meditate, that will be a great help. Meditation’s a great help.

Do you use meditation?

I do meditate because being an Asian, that’s the culture. It naturally come. So I meditate.

What kind of, so do you use verse or ‘?

A Christian meditation, you know. Like for example, now I do some preaching in the church to, I used to, but now with all this gone. So when I used to do preaching, what I used to do is that the previous night before I go to bed, I read a passage, the scriptures. And the next morning, when I am driving to Newcastle-on-Tyne, right five hour drive I will be meditating and thinking about it, so thoughts will come in, and then when I get off at Newcastle, I’ll just note the, jot the points down. On the, my return I will refine it. Sermon’s done.

Does the meditation help when you are feeling depressed?

Oh yes, it helps. At least it takes you mind off. This is the thing with meditation. Even when you are not depressed, if you’ve got bad thoughts. Or if you have got some sort of problem and you are worried about it. When you meditate, you can switch off, you think about something pleasant or something like that and then that will lessen the pain, and if you go on, then suddenly you forget, why, why was I, why was I worried about things. So I always recommend people to sit down and meditate and you can meditate anywhere, any time, any situation. You don’t need somebody else to hold your hand.

You have talked earlier about religion like when in BHS and you got a blackout and you started using your words. Do you get any help from religion to solve your problems e.g. mental problem ?

I don’t understand.

E.g. reciting hymns, reading holy books, meditation or religious prayers are helpful to the soul.

Yes, it is helpful but you know our Bible is little bit depressive. It talks too deeply that you get depressed.

Can you give me some examples of how it depresses you?

For example, there is a line Farida Hamra Ko Nahi Hum Kissi Ke Nahi which means Baba Farid says nobody belongs to me on this earth and even I don’t belong to anybody. If I don’t belong to anybody then why should I go closer to anybody and if I want to go close then people don’t let me come closer.

Then by thinking this the person then becomes more depressed?

Yes, yes, there are many proverbs that depress you. I am a person who reads the Bible, you know in the Sikh Temple they read one Bible within 48 hours start to finish non stop.

Do you say Bible to Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Yes, I say Bible to Guru Granth Sahib Ji and every two hours the person is changed and they read 30 pages an hour. I used to read it and understand it little bit. I have Guru Granth Sahib ji at my home and also I have a translation of it but I don’t use the translation because it makes me depressive.

You get some pain from Bible, do you gain anything?

Yes, the gain is that these phrases tell you that you should manage yourself but if you see that nobody comes to your home then take it to the other side. It has both sides, negative and positive. Where your mind is locked you got stuck over there.

So it may be positive or it maybe on the other side.

Yes, yes, but if you have nobody then you make yourself in that way and make yourself busy and leave everything on God. But when person is in pain he doesn’t take it positively then he only takes it negatively. When a person is healthy then he goes to people and gives examples and when he takes at his own then he doesn’t take it positive and think only in a negative side.

With this psychosis thing I have To tell you that it’s more, it can be a hindrance, it really can be a hindrance. Being religious, being spiritual I live a prayer life and every kind of inward communion or conversation with the power recognised as divine can trigger a psychosis episode, like hearing voice of God etc; I have to pitch my religious belief, so that it look intellectually respectable that can stand criticism and cannot proclaim one’s inspired by God to those who knows I am a schizophrenic but the Fundamentalist get away with it and people without a serious in remission mental illness can speak to God and not seen as crazy. I was possessed by the devil, I felt possessed but I never believed in a devil as a spirit of a bad person in a celestial place called hell. The term was widely used in the 70s and 80s to describe negative soul energy from an ill mind that trick the body to do bizarre things. I perceived that I had the devil in me but it really was not it’s the mind playing tricks, like I say my mind was disturbed. A disturbed mind, nothing coming from outside of me into me, nothing, you’ve got your own spirits we all been born and created with spirit and so on. We don’t know where anything comes from, we don’t know, we really don’t know anything really. Most explanation centre on supernatural creator and it is a matter of faith with a science mixture that make up my belief.

People make up ideas on it, when I come to think of it, it’s ideas about God, that’s what’s flying round the place, everybody has got their own ideas about God. Nobody know what God looks like, nobody on this earth, we’ve seen, we are on a planet, we do not know there’s existence out there, we don’t know if there’s supernatural thing, there are force out there, there’s a force in us, a creative thing. I just think it’s a force and you can’t say it’s a person, you can’t say, can name it but the only name in the human language you can give it is a god. That’s the only name we can associate it as being something we can comprehend. Some people say, call this same God, Jesus or whatever or Buddha or whatever.

I back peddle on this spirituality thing because I think it is actually, it’s up to the individual to find their own way through it or around it or whatever and I feel lucky that the first time I felt suicidal and was going to drive my car off a cliff top in Sydney, I had it planned, I stopped the car at the base of the cliff and walked along the beach, don’t know why, I just parked the car. And after I’d walked one length, 1′ lengths, it’s about, it’s about a 3 mile beach I suppose I felt this, there I felt the size of a 50p piece a neutrality. You know, I tell you about anxiety and all these other feelings you get when you’re depressed? It was a neutral bit and it got there, and with every pace the neutral bit sort of started to expand and spread all over me and I thought I’ve never felt neutral in my life before at all now so that was my version of a miracle. You know, I know officially the Catholic church will say that’s not a miracle it has to be, it has to be approved by, it has to follow certain guidelines, they’ve even got a miracle committee in the Vatican somewhere there as far as I know, or that I heard. So yes that’s my version of a miracle to me and there have been a few since then and I feel it’s helped me understand that there are certain things beyond my control and I’ve got to let those things be dealt with by whatever, not by me. I can only change the things I can change, you know, like in the AlAnon self-help prayer, you know. So yeah, so it’s important to me but I would say I don’t like to talk about it on the basis of it being the same for everybody because I don’t think it is. And I would never want to impose my belief system or faith on somebody else, that’s not the way I don’t see it like that. I don’t see it as a tribal thing like joining a group and you’ve got to believe in this and that, you know, and some kind of indoctrination scheme, which is often what they are. You know, if they’re not arrived at spontaneously by yourself well then it, it does seem to be an indoctrination thing, which fair enough some people really need that or they like that or they, they want that but that’s not the way I can operate. So I really do think it’s up to the individual to find their letting go mechanism the best way they can because you’ve got to be able to let go of some things you can’t change, you must be able to do that. So if you call that spirituality alright but that’s all it is, you start at that point and then find out what the rest of it means to you.

And is that, that’s what it does for you then, it’s your point of letting go?

It is, it is, it has to be, it has to be, otherwise I’d feel disempowered about the things I couldn’t change. It’s a, it’s a trap if I can’t learn to let go and whatever the method I use, is a spiritual method.

And do you have a particular religion that you believe in?

No I haven’t been able to do that, I haven’t been able to do that. Look I’ve spent quite a lot of time [four second pause] as an attender at Quaker meetings, I’ve been to two or three or their enquiries weekends, they’ve got a special sort of what do you call it a retreat for people who are enquiring about Quakerism, they conduct those in, up in Oxfordshire, I’ve been to three of those. last one was in 2001 and, 2002 I think and I’ve been to various Meeting Houses to try and find out which group suits me, I haven’t found one. I haven’t found one so now I’m not going to bother with that any more because it. They don’t quite suit my belief system, I’m just a little bit, most of what they, most of, most of their the Friends they call themselves appeals to me, the way they go about things but there’s, there’s also that little bit of tribalism in there and that group joining and one group doesn’t talk to the other and so