But I only knew these, I only knew these things from reading lots of books, I got lots of books from the library and got given lots of books and I read a lot and so it’s, like I say, if, for somebody who doesn’t want to read lots of books and, and find out information that way, then possibly it would be a good thing to do. But like I say, I never learned anything [at antenatal classes].

Did you, were you just very enthusiastic to go and get books and read them?

Yeah, I was, I wanted to know everything [laughing] about what was going to happen to me and all the different stages of pregnancy and what was going on in, inside me and what hed look like now and so, yeah, I was, I was enthusiastic to read and find out information.

Was it quite easy to find good books?

Yeah, yeah, I mean even, like I say, the library had a good selection of books. I brought a good, got a few books from the bookshop, and I got lent books from people and so, yeah, it was, it was easy, definitely.

Did you look for information on the Internet at all?

No, because I don’t know how to use it [laughing].

Okay.

No, I would, my boyfriend is really good at that so if I’d wanted to I could have done but I didn’t, no.

Did you talk to other people who’d had babies previously about their experience?

Yeah.

Was that helpful or unhelpful?

Very, very helpful.

Tell me about some of the ways in which that was helpful?

Well, one of my best friends has had a baby and just – I work with her as well – and just, I was asking her questions all the time about, you know, what happens and it was very helpful, definitely. It’s good to know people who’ve had babies if you’re having one yourself, definitely.

Can you give me some examples of things that you wanted to know that it was really useful to hear from someone who’d had a baby?

I really, I wanted to know about the birth [laughing]. But she didn’t tell me too much about that, thankfully. That, no, just general, just general health questions, really, and should I being doing this now and should it be like this now and should my ankles look like this now? And things like that really.

And if you were going to offer advice to health professionals like doctors and midwives about how to deal with young people, very young women who are having babies, what would you say to them?

I’d ask them, I’d actually tell them that you need to get on the wavelength of the, the person that you’re talking to. Because most of them they do talk down to you as if, ‘I know what I’m talking about, I’m a professional’ and things like this and, ‘I’ve done this for years’ kind of thing. Because we did have one in the hospital that done that. But if you are going to talk to like a young adult like me at least sit there and listen to what they’ve got to say. And then try and say, not in the big long medical words, because people like me don’t understand them, because I don’t. There might be certain people out there that do, but I don’t. But if you do, if they was I’d ask them to, like I’d say to them, ‘You need to get on the wavelength that these, these people are on because you need to know what, what’s wrong with them and that.

And the thing about my cholestasis I think it should be in books, because I’ve tried, I’ve searched through books and theres not one book that I’ve read that has, that’s mentioned cholestasis at all. I’ve searched through books. I’ve made my mum go to a library and get me loads and I can’t find nothing about it in pregnancy books. So I think that needs to be in a book, you know, about that or what the medical terms are really, what causes it, what to look out for. You have pre-eclampsia and that in your books and things like that, but you don’t have nothing about to do with your liver, or, or any other organs in your body that could fail on you, do you know what I mean, and things like that. I think it all should be mentioned in books.

I think, when I found out I was pregnant I was like, ‘Oh, this was just the best thing ever. You know, I just wanted to read up on, I mean like, everyone knows the basics, I think everyone knows the basics, but then I wanted to know more and so I went out and bought, you know, Parent magazine and this magazine and I got some textbooks off the internet and, you know, sat down and, and merrily read them. And it was fine while you were reading all the good bits. But when it came to, you know, the not so good bits it was, ‘Oh, God, I didn’t know about that’ or, ‘Oh, yes, that could happen. And it sort of brought, brought everything to the front of your mind really, and I think that’s made me worry a lot more than if I’d have maybe not read all that stuff. Now I don’t, I don’t read hardly anything at all, I just, you know, let it go day by day and take it from there, really. But I think I, my advice to anyone that would be, you know, is planning a pregnancy and, is not to go out and buy loads of books and, you know, loads of magazines, because they do home in on lots of problems as well as, you know, as well as the nice things. And I think if you’re a person that worries generally, which, I, I do worry quite a lot about things, you can just tie yourself up in knots worrying and thinking, ‘Oh, my God, this is going to happen’ or, you know, you convince yourself almost that, that nasty things are going to happen, which is not what you want. I think you, you definitely want a positive mental attitude when you’re pregnant, for both of you. So, [laugh] yes, so I found, I’d put on that, you know, put a stop to that completely, and I just . . .

What about talking to other people? Do, do you talk to other women about their pregnancies?

Yes, I mean before I got pregnant I used to find people talking about pregnancy really boring and think, ‘Oh, God, not again’ [laugh]. But now I just want to yak, yak, yak about my pregnancy [laugh]. Luckily I’ve got a couple of friends who are actually pregnant at the moment as well, and one who’s just had a baby, so it’s been really nice to, to have them around. So, you know, obviously the, the girl who’s had the baby is, shes been through it all and so were all asking her the questions. And, but it’s just nice because were friends and we can just sit round and talk about it. But, yes, we certainly, we certainly do sit and chat about it [laugh].

Do you think theres a similar danger with talking to other people as there is with reading too many magazines, that you’ll hear too many, I don’t know, wild stories about things, and that might not be helpful in the end?

I think theres a little difference, as far as when you’re talking to people you can see that they’ve come through this, and you can see that everything’s fine, they’re fine, the baby’s fine, and they actually put it into a bit more perspective than reading a textbook. A textbook’s just black and white, and I think you sometimes make your own ending up almost. And I think that’s, that’s the difference.

Once, once everything was kind of clear in your head, I was able to go and find out about the condition itself, and that gives you knowledge and things, gives you a bit more – makes you stronger. Once you know what you’re, what you’re dealing with, and what’s happened, and I think that makes you – that lets you be a bit stronger, as well, once you can know what’s happened, and what you’re dealing with. I think that’s helpful.

Where did you get information about the condition?

The internet [laughs]. The internet is a wonderful source of information for everything. I initially sourced information in different [cough], excuse me. I used the internet to source information initially because the – I checked medical books and different other sources, and I couldn’t find anything. I’d spoken to different people as well, and couldn’t find any information, so my first port of call was the internet, and then after that I was able, once I’d got some information and things were a bit more settled, I was able to go back to the consultant with information and then ask questions. Because obviously at the time you’re so involved with what’s happening that you don’t ask questions. Theres lots of things that you want to know – what happened – why did it happen? What – theres things that I didn’t remember at all because you’ve had surgery, and theres big gaps that I – at the time that I don’t – that I didn’t remember. And you want those gaps filled. And family can do so much but theres bits that you need to, to find out, and looking at her [daughter’s] medical notes, and my notes, you can piece together different things, but it’s still a lot of medical jargon and things, that you want to ask questions about.

That night I remember I looked on the internet to look up diaphragmatic hernia and some of it said that theres an eighty percent mortality rate, and I just couldn’t take it in, you know…

My boyfriend got the impression that it was just a little operation hed have to have afterwards, and then be in hospital for a while and then come out. And once I saw that on the internet I didn’t look any further, I just didn’t want to know. Because some people go and do loads of research and find out the best hospital and the best surgeons and all that kind of thing. And I just remember being paralysed with shock.

The leaflets from Down’s Syndrome Scotland were good. I mean I had been on the internet, but it gets very – you can either get sort of too much information that way, so [background noise]. Let me think, what else? I suppose, I don’t know, I think my health visitor had looked after children with Down’s syndrome before, but not necessarily recently, so I mean, I think, I think your average health professional probably hasn’t had a lot to do with it and wouldn’t know that much about it. But, and again, theres the specialist paediatrician which is, she seems to be very good. So that I mean, I think that I’d go – I’d have a specific question and go to the Down’s Syndrome Association.

What do they offer you?

Well they’ve got, they’ve got lots of resources like books or videos or, I think they’ve got learning materials, and they’ve got sort of specialist workers who work with children or develop the curriculum in schools.

Can you just, what, ring them up and ask questions or ask for materials and things?

Yeah, or you can visit their office, and they’ve got a website as well, so I’ve looked at the website a few times, and I suppose that’s the main, the main place. But I really think they’re good and they give like a children’s party at Christmas, you know, which is nice for them. They do some good things.

And what other information did you get from the parenting classes that, what was the most helpful thing?

What was quite useful is about – I know this might sound basic – but just about washing your baby and not to use too much of the soaps and the lotions. And, and I don’t – like, because my Mum’s like, when I went to stay with my Mum, she was like, you know, putting baby lotion on, "The skin’s dry on your baby" and that. And it’s best, from what I understood from the classes to leave, leave the skin alone, not put any lotion on it, because it can make it worse. It, I think they were saying that some children get eczema or something from that as well. And that all worked, because her skin I found was fine, I didn’t put anything on it and she was fine with that. So that was quite helpful, otherwise I would have been putting loads of lotion on this baby and loads of soap and, and it would have ruined – or maybe just irritated her skin.

Mmm. So sometimes what your family were saying, like your Mum in particular, was going against what you were hearing in the classes?

Yeah.

It looks like you were leaning more towards the kind of…

Yeah, because it sort of made sense in the, in the sense that what they were saying is what exactly is in that lotion, really? And it’s not the purest of the pure that you can put on your baby. Water’s more pure, isn’t it? And just a little drop of whatever in it is sufficient. And when I was washing my baby and that, I found it does work. It did help her skin. If it didn’t, then I would be saying, Well actually, it doesn’t work." But my Mum did give me some useful information as well, because the baby had really sort of dry scalp on top, and she said, Put Vaseline on, leave it for a bit, and then get a comb and comb it out, and then wash her hair. That way the scalp bits will come of, and that worked. So that was like useful for me from my Mum as well. So I think it’s just thinking for yourself, as well, what you think might be useful.

And using your experience to decide.

Yeah. Right [laughs].

Did you did you, were you, I mean at that stage, when you went into labour, did you feel quite well prepared of what to expect?

Yes.

Where did you get your information from?

Maybe from the health, the midwife.

Midwife and did you look on line or read any books or anything?

No.

So the information the midwife gave you was good enough.

Yeah.

Mother: And what about me?

And my mum.

Mother: [laughs]

And then I, in typical fashion, didn’t get my period so I decided to take a pregnancy test and it came back positive. And so I called the doctor and said, ‘I think I’m pregnant’ and they said, ‘You can come in if you want. So I did, I went in and they said, ‘Well, why do you think you’re pregnant?’ And I said, ‘I took a pregnancy test and it said I was pregnant’ and they said, ‘Well, then you’re pregnant’ [laughing]. And that was it, they didn’t want to talk to me or tell me anything. I kind of would have liked, I think, more information at that point because I’d never been pregnant before and I didn’t know what I was supposed to eat or do or [laughing] anything like that. And then I talked to the GP again, just on the phone. They called me and said to call back, they would put me in touch with the midwife but just to call the midwife at around 12 weeks of pregnancy to make an appointment, assuming that the pregnancy lasted and that everything was okay, that I didn’t have a miscarriage. So,

Were you surprised to be told that?

Yes, I mean, I was, I was more scared I think.

It was all so new, like I couldn’t decide even whether I was supposed to tell my parents that I was pregnant or whether I should wait 12 weeks to do that. Or, it was, it seemed like the biggest thing that had ever happened to me but I didn’t know what to do or where to go [laughing]. Emotionally I think it was hard. And of course I went out and bought a bunch of pregnancy books and I really, that was the way that I learned about things. Or the, the way that I scared myself and made myself feel better because, of course, the pregnancy books all talk about high risk of miscarriage in the first trimester. But they can also be reassuring. I mean they, it’s nice to have information, I think.

Would you have liked to have more information from a midwife though?

Absolutely. I think it, it’s hard to tell in books what is important because I think they try to cover everything, especially the things that can go wrong. You start to get the feeling that everything’s going to go wrong in every pregnancy, and I think it would have been nice to talk to someone who could say, ‘Yes, there are these terrible things but chances are everything’s going to be okay. I really would have liked to have someone talk to me [laughing]. In the end, I told my Mum almost right away and she was a great emotional support. Because she has 5 kids of her own [laughing] and has got through everthing. I mean, I think that was what I was hoping to get from a doctor or a midwife or something, just a little bit of that support and information.

I mean, again, if it’s someone who keeps themselves well informed or, you know, speaks English and stuff like that and can – it’s not so bad. But like obviously in this area, again, if she [the midwife] was doing that with other people – being that we have an area where lots of people don’t speak English as their first language – if other people she hadn’t made a birth plan with, that could make it stressful for them, do you know what I mean? If that’s what’s supposed to happen and doesn’t happen. And you’ve got somebody who only speaks Urdu going with her husband, who doesn’t speak much English as well. Or you get a Kosovan family who don’t speak much English, and they go to hospital with no birth plan, that could be quite serious.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions if you’re pregnant – ask. Because, you know, if you’re not sure about something, if you’re scared to ask anything, just go and ask them. Even when things are not going to plan, in terms of what you’ve been diagnosed with as I was, you know, the first time round, then ask. Ask somebody, where do you go for support and help? I was given leaflets and things, you know, like when I lost the baby, but nothing that I felt was related to me in terms of my religion and culture. It was all, you know, the SANDS [Stillbirth and Neonatal Death Society] and what have you and things, but I didn’t feel I could sort of like just ring them up. You know, you needed that push to do that. I didn’t have anybody to push me to do that. I didn’t have somebody saying to me afterwards, Oh, look, you know, were really sorry, and, and this, that and the other. And you must go I didn’t have that care after, when I left the hospital. I was just sort of dealing with it myself, the first time round.