I mean I have enjoyed it thoroughly and I would encourage anyone who likes the intellectual side of things. And I, and I don’t mean that those who don’t do it aren’t intellectual. That, that’s, it’s not an either/or situation. But it’s a different kind of challenge. It’s a different way of looking at the big picture. Sometimes you look at the big picture bit as a manager, you know, how we’re gonna run our service and, and provide for our community. And, sometimes, you look at it from the research side of things and say, ”How can we make our service better? How can we make it better? What we’re able to offer to patients.’ And I would say, try it, explore it. Go to it with an open mind. Find nice people to work with. And in, and then it and it matters hugely that you do it right and you do it accurately. And then you understand why those things matter. Sometimes they don’t matter in life. But in research it really does. And, and not just because you like to be dogmatic. But because you, you can’t, you can’t say to somebody, This can save your life, unless you’ve proven that it can absolutely by doing it beforehand. You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t dare make that promise to anyone. So you, you know, you’ve gotta do it right.

Go for it [laughs]. I think it’s one of the most amazing things I could probably done in my life, so yeah [laughs]. But it’s amazing. It’s definitely-, it’s so rewarding. You’re discovering care for like what’s best, whether it’s for that lady or for like the people to come kind of thing, or potentially like your own babies to come, you just don’t know like what you’re going to discover. And just changing-, like ladies-, one of the things as well, the fact that one of the latest lady’s that’s I’ve recruited, she was just like, “Oh yeah, I’m really, really interested,” and then it just came to my mind. I thought ‘actually, you’re going to be one of like-,’ you know when you read guidelines and it says three hun-, 3000, something like that. So you’re going to be one of those 3000 people. I was like, “You should get those guidelines cos you’re-, like you’ve participated,” and she was just like, “Actually, yeah,” like. So, it was very-, it’s not only rewarding for myself, but it’s rewarding knowing that I’ve made someone else feel rewarded also.

I think it’s a real privilege actually to have the time and the ability to work with people to improve their health, and I think it is about not necessarily being rushed from one-. We are -, sometimes we are; sometimes we are rushed from one thing to another and, you know, you don’t know whether you’re on your head or your feet, but that’s normal for lots of people doing lots of things. But I think on those occasions like we were talking about earlier that you do have the time to sit with people and you do have time to make a difference.

And I think it’s also a bit about being part of something that’s, that’s a bit new and a bit -, a bit unknown. I do particularly like -. I take lots of different things from lots of different studies, but I do quite like being part of the sort of the new drug studies, and there’s a stud-, there’s a drug that’s just received NICE [National Institute for Health and Care Excellence] approval-, well last year, got a NICE approval, and another one that will get NICE approval later on this year, and it’s sort of nice to know that you’re being part of making that -, you know, even if it’s a tiny part, you know, we had a couple of patients on a study that was this big, but without lots of people with just a few patients it wouldn’t have worked, and I suppose it’s quite rewarding being part of something like that.

So I think research sometimes has a reputation as something that is on the sort of fringes of clinical work. That it requires a lot of high educational achievement to take part in, that it’s only for some people, that it’s not for everybody. But I think as there’s a greater understanding that actually research underpins everything that we do as clinicians, it becomes more embedded. Research activity becomes more embedded in the clinical roles. I think there is greater awareness of research roles. And also perhaps understanding that that can be part of your clinical role or actually you can take on a much more dedicated research role, either in a shorter term or longer term, that actually provides different sorts of opportunities in terms of career development, beyond that, that perhaps are linked to a particular speciality or particular role.

The main thing is to be enthusiastic and it is an amazing role and we need more enthusiastic people taking part in research and to promote research and to show everyone why it’s important and why we need, we need new midwives, someone who’s newly qualified, someone who’s maybe fresh from their studies to actually say I may not have enough, you know, I may not have a lot of practical experience but I am going to value my, the experience I’ve had at university, the fact that I know I have more recent studying experience and I know how to access evidence so I’m going to use that towards improving the care that the patients have and to improve the knowledge that we have about diseases that affect our job on a daily basis. So I would say, I think sometimes research is seen as something like a career progression or something you will do when you’ve have enough experience practically, there’s a, this belief in healthcare that you have to have 25 years’ experience before you actually can start pursuing a career which I think experience help but not everyone elaborates experience in the same way. So maybe someone with good reflective ability may be able to learn more from one day, one shift in the labour ward than 25 years, you know.

So I think especially newly qualified midwives should, midwives should, we should encourage because in other fields they do that they, they do a BSc and then Masters and then PhD and then they start working and I think for us it’s something that’s so unthinkable and I understand why but my personal opinion is that I, I don’t think I think that we need someone who’s new, who’s newly qualified maybe or maybe they’ve had some experience, someone who’s passionate about making changes and, and implementing, you know innovation and someone who’s able to transmit that to the staff because I think sometimes especially someone has worked in a certain way for a number of years it’s harder to then re-think your behaviour because it’s so embedded in your identity, you think oh that’s what midwives do so now you’re telling me to do something else.

Whereas I think if you’ve just been trained you probably are more flexible and you, you want to learn and you, and if you, if you learn how to, how to learn from the beginning then this mind, this research mind-set will stay with you throughout your career and you can start your midwifery career with research, I think there, that’s, there’s probably this misconception that you have to be old to start research or you have to be, you have to have a few years of experience before you can start and that’s fine some people do that and that’s fine.

Come and work with us for a day, go wherever you are in, you know, whatever hospital you’re in there’s bound to be a research department, come down and say hi, shadow us for a, you know, for a, for a day or whatever you can do. See what you think, it’s very interesting, you know, things, you know, studies open and close so you, you move into different areas, different things it’s all, you know, quite stimulating, you get, you know, and what you’re doing I think what is key is it’s very it’s very worthwhile because you definitely get that feeling that you know, that you, you’re gathering information that’s not been gathered before to look at things that need to be, you know, that hasn’t been looked at before to hopefully improve management and care for the future. You know, you only have to look back 20 years to see how things have changed and you look forward the next 20 years and then you can be part of that, you know, part of that change and that’s you know that I think is quite motivational and gives you job satisfaction.

So this goes back I think to what I was saying about having that pathway set up, there isn’t necessarily a clear pathway set up for you to integrate clinical work and research work. So, it’s interesting to think about why, you know how, everybody who I know is a researcher and a clinician has sort of cobbled together something and found their way and uses their skills and enjoys using their clinical skills, whether it be within delivering a clinical intervention, whether it be in supporting students to train, or informing research methods so that they’re appropriate for people with communication needs. Yeah, it’s, there’s no clear cut path and it, it can be a bit of a, a challenge to identify how you fit in it I suppose.

So I always reassure them, that’s the main thing I have, seeing people- when the nurses after joining after many years of experience, they think ‘oh my god, I don’t think this is for me. Because I really struggled. And I, and think maybe I’m thick, they’ll tell me I’m very slow. But I will tell them, No, don’t worry, this is just how I was feeling when I joined, but it takes time, so you will enjoy after that. But they have come back to me and said, You were right, so it’s just like, you know, learning that from their practical experience, then gradually doing one study. Maybe one-, you know, the first patient when they are recruiting, they will have a little bit of an idea how it’s run. But when they do the second and third patient, they will be expert. And, you know, with that process. And with the legal issue, like ethics and approvals and things like that. You know. We do still struggle, and because the policies are changed and new other authorities will be joining, HR will be joining, all those things. You know, you just learn as it goes. So that will be different.

But you know, the nurses, after one year, they just run the study by themself. I don’t have to help them much. But I just, you know, put a little bit of effort, you know, help with the team, but. Otherwise once they are happy with the trial, they are comfortable.

Try to change the way that you think about you don’t have to know it all now. Do you know, take it back to when you were doing your nursing career as a, the first six months of being a student and you were just thinking, Oh my god, what have I done? You know I’ll never, what’s this I don’t understand that? And research is very much like that. You just come with thinking, Oh I’ve got ten years of knowledge, this is going to serve me well. And it, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. But just give yourself time. Give yourself at least six months before you make any rash decisions and give yourself at least twelve months to say, I think after twelve months you would know whether it was for you or not. I think that the cat in the headlights is going to be there for six months, don’t worry about it. Easier said than done. I worried about it. And then suddenly you just realise that things are clicking without you even realising. And what you worried about last week, you don’t worry about anymore now because you’ve, it’s there, it’s embedded. It’s that knowledge that you can call upon without thinking. You know, go and find me this protocol, What’s a protocol? You know, Which protocol? To suddenly going, Oh yeah, it’s in the filing cabinet C, second drawer, right at the back. You have to squeeze round because it’s really full, but it’s there, and you can do it. There it is. And you do that without thinking, and that is a personal achievement you don’t realise, and I am probably just talking to you realising more about how I’ve moved on in 15 months to where I am now, to thinking that. Yeah. It was very, very scary. But as long as you’re prepared for that, and you don’t let it overwhelm you so much to just think I can’t do it. You, it might not be for you but give it a go, definitely give it a good go, give it a good six months and then give it another six months after that to say, Am I sorted? Is this really for me? Because it might not be, but at least you’ve tried. And that’s the same with anything in life.

So if I’m speaking to them about the day-to-day role, I would say – don’t be afraid to ask for help. From the study centre, probably. And from your line manager, but from the study centre. Because I think maybe you think that they’re not very approachable. They’re probably scared to reveal to the study centre that they don’t know something.

But actually they’re very, in the main, they’re extremely helpful. Particularly if you say you’re new. And ask for help from anyone around you.

So someone who is patient, it can’t be rushed, and it takes a lot of time. I think you have to be able to bear with the bits that you don’t like and really make the role what you want it to be. So, see pick out, pick out the bits that you really enjoy, you’ve still got to do all the other things, but like I said, like the health promotion aspect for me was really something that gave me something to anchor in while I settled into my research post, and really something that I could give back. I think passion, if you can be passionate and really believe in what you’re doing. So, there’s no point, if you work on a study and you don’t think this, you think it’s a load of rubbish, or it’s not really for you, then you’re probably not going to do very good at it. So, you’ve got to believe that you are making a difference and that you, you know, that it’s important. I think you have to have an eye for detail, and for process cos you need to be able to do things in a correct order, in order to be able to do everything that needs to be done. And I think as much as anything it’s about that, the autonomy to think, Okay, this isn’t working, what can I do differently? So, problem solving, thinking about how I can get the best results in the time frame that I’ve got, good communication skills. You’ve got to balance a lot of people and work with a lot of different types of people. So really understanding what everybody’s motivation is for where they are and thinking, okay so, like, like I said before, the CNSs [Clinical Nurse Specialists], what, what are the problems, why don’t they want to be involved? If you can identify what those barriers are, then you’re part of the way to overcoming them and then giving great opportunity for the patient to take part. So yeah, so communication, organisation, planning and passion.

I would just say-, I mean it is-, I think it’s a really, really interesting job, and I just think there’s lots and lots of opportunities out there. What I would say is come and sort of see what it’s all about. I would say come and, come and sort of speak to research nurses, and see if you can come and, and sort of spend a day working in research and see if it is the sort of thing that you want to do. But it’s, for me, I think one of the things that I really like about it is the variety, because you, no day, no two days are ever the same. And, you know, you get an opportunity to try some different things, so there’s, there’s a lot of liaison with sort of the R&D department but then you’ve got the patient contact, you’ve got sort of even just doing the labs, so sort of seeing the patient right through from start to finish, I think is, is the thing that I really like about it. And you do build up relationships with the patients over, over time. You know, sometimes you’ve got a patient coming in for a year and you really have the time to spend with that person. And, you know, I’ve got a couple of patients that have taken part in research three or four years ago that I’m in still in touch with now. Because we, we’ve sort of built up that relationship and we, you know, and they’ve perhaps come back for a couple of different studies and then they’ve got involved in some Patient and Public Involvement stuff with us as well, so I still see them from time to time at things and, you know, and I think that’s, that’s one of the things I really like about it.

But I think the crucial thing is, is the, the research team and their communication skills and their ability to judge clinical situations. And this is one of the reasons I think it’s really helpful that we mostly employ our own intensive care nurses who come into research because they are very good at reading what’s happening clinically and, and then also working with the team. Cos I think that’s another crucial aspect is, is working with the team, to, you optimise the timing, you’re constantly aware of what’s going on with that family that day, that it’s- [clears throat] the numbers may all look okay on this patient but actually that family had just had some terrible news about a sibling of the child, you know, unfortunately the nature of our environment is that it may not just be one child is critically ill, may be two, it may be other members of the family, and so we really need to work with the rest of the team to get the approach right.

Optimistic, organised, methodical, a good listener, able to get on with people, across a broad spectrum of networks really. Because you’re dealing with, you know, academics and, like yourself, from universities. Or you’re dealing with businesses. And you’re dealing with consultants. You’re trying to motivate consultants. That’s quite challenging, sometimes. It’s just like, I’m, I’m sort of go on the principle of a bull in a china shop, must be it’s my Taurus. But I’m very much of ‘I just need you to do this, is there any chance you could get this done?’ and I’m very much a face to face. If I email, if I don’t get a response, I’m like ‘do you know what, I’ll just go and see them. So I know I’ve always got to put myself out there a little bit more, you know. And you know, within the first few weeks, I very quickly realised they do need- You know, they’re very busy. They’ve massive clinical load. So as regards research, it’s, it’s there, but it, it will always take a second to the clinical needs. Which is obvious. But, so things like reminding them when they need to do the GCP [Good Clinical Practice] training, when they need to do it, sending that reminder. And actually giving them the link to-, you actually, there’s a lot of, you know, really pushing that side of that relationship to support them, to do, to help you do what you need to do.

So, yeah. I think it’s about not always taking no for an answer. Being able to push past that. And, and finding ways to see solutions to problems. So, yeah. A bit more lateral thinking helps.

So if you’re thinking about moving into a research post I think, well I actually think it’s a really great opportunity for the right kind of person. And I think you-, the way I always say to people is, you know, Do you feel that one of the things that is frustrating for you in your current job is about the fact that you don’t always have the attention to de-, you are not able to exercise the attention to detail that you would like to? Then this is probably a really good opportunity, because the absolute key thing for me when I’m looking for people is attention to detail and a thoroughness and if you-, those are core components of it.

I also think as well that you really need to value the communication skills, I think it’s very easy to think that a research job is not- is for people who perhaps struggle more with people and interaction. And I think there’s this sort of view that, you know, we just sit and like numbers and do excel spreadsheets and, and actually for me, it is all about communication. Because you have to be able to liaise and have contact with so many different people and professionals, and you’ve got to be able to articulate very clearly and quickly sometimes, what you’re trying to do. And so for people who struggle with that or-, that’s actually quite difficult. So I think if you are the right kind of person, I think you absolutely should give it a go, I think, I think some of the staff who’ve done research secondments have gone onto do things like advanced nurse practitioner and I think some of those roles-, I mean research or an ability to engage in critical thinking which I view as being part of that, is absolutely a fundamental thing for so many of these advanced posts. Clinical nurse specialists, advanced nurse practitioners, anyone who goes out and to work in the community, who needs autonomy, I think there’s so many things that a background in research nursing could be so useful for.

And so I think-, I appreciate it’s not for everyone, but actually there’s lots of core skills that are so useful.

Well my key message to a radiographer who would be involved in research, please do not lose your clinical skills and at the same time if you are going to be working in clinical research that is my main message. Because I think working clinically in radiotherapy, as a radiographer is, you know, you always keep up your skills but you don’t wait to lose that just because you are becoming a research radiographer. And I think that’s my key message.

And I think that’s what I felt during my career but, you know, obviously that’s to do with the-, whether you become busy or not, you need to still keep up with your clinical skills in line with the research skills.

Do you have any sort of tips or bits of advice for how to do that?

[Laughs] It depends on where you are actually working so it can be in a-, if you’re in a university hospital, in a big hospital, then it’s quite easy to liaise with the, you know, people research in radiotherapy and they’re quite usually quite good with accommodating you with the research and at the same time working on treatment floor. Whereas in a, you know, hospital or a small hospital it can be difficult so I think that’s my honest opinion, so it depends. So where you work basically and whether you are working on a radiotherapy under the-, under the radiotherapy radiographer then obviously quite easy to obviously, you know, work with the trials department as well. So yeah, I think that’s my key message [laughs].