So I just – I’ve really checked out of the whole, get more done equals more life idea. I actually think you get more out of life if you get less done, if you’re less ambitious, you plan less in a day. I mean you – I really do smell the roses, I mean I genuinely do smell the roses. I move slower, I walk slower, I do everything slower, it’s fantastic.

And I’ve got more time for people, it’s – the irony wasn’t lost on me, but after I gave up being a pastor, I actually had more time for people, so, you know, it’s really strange because my life was full of just meetings and planning and budgets and events and programs

So, I never wanted to – I actually never wanted to get better and have my old life back. I never wanted to get back to the way things were because I realised that I had to change and, I actually wanted to be better because of depression and so for me recovery, it was, it was a journey that hopefully, ended up with me being a changed person for the better. And I guess they’re some of the things that have changed for the better in, in my story.

Just progressively feeling more and more like myself really.

And, you know, I’ve changed careers, I now run my own business. I’ve done things I, you know, done things I never thought I’d do, travelled, so since the kids have been born I’ve been going overseas by myself regularly.

So I’ve seen a lot of the world that I hadn’t seen previously. So life is very, very different to what it would have been even if I’d just – if I’d never had the depression life would be very different. And so the depr – the PND really helped me be very clear about who I am and what I want to do I guess. So in that way it was good.

I’m much clearer on who I am and who I’m not. I’m – I mean, it’s hard, because I haven’t got access to the person I would have been if I’d continued on that trajectory, it’s hard to know how I would have turned out but I’m much more adult. I take responsibility for myself and my actions, I talk in I’ language about, I feel, I want, I think.

But maybe I also say recovery because I, I want to believe it. Do you know what I mean? I don’t, I want to feel like I’m through the other side and so by saying it, it will mean that I am. But I actually feel I am. I feel much better. I feel I can deal with a lot more things.

And I have talked to my GP about a third child and my anxiety about getting it again. But she’s very pragmatic and very, you may not get it, you may. Let’s deal with it when it comes.

It’s made me reflect a lot more on life and its stresses and the pressure we put on ourselves as parents and mothers and – I mean I wonder if I would have done that anyway. But because I do, I now do this meditation quite a lot it’s made me sort of see, it’s slightly go off, off on a tangent of trying to simplify life and live in the moment. And not be influenced by, trying not to be influenced by how nut society tries to entangle our lives.

Yes the simple kind of life, have a lot more home days. And try and live in the moment where sometimes if, I try not to be on the phone when the kids are awake, you know. You’ve got a lot of admin anyway but certainly the internet can drain time so I try not to be on the internet. I try to sit down, I mean it’s so basic – sit down and read with the kids and count their toes a couple of times a day, do you know what I mean? Just enjoy them and just sit out, it doesn’t have to do anything, just sit out there and catch grasshoppers and just enjoy.

But now I feel good because I have learned to feel good – that’s what I would say – through all these life experiences and counselling sessions, with support from friends and maybe spiritual beings. I have learned to feel good and allow myself to feel good to an extent that I allow myself to, and not feeling so much of the doom and gloom and wanting to go back to the bottom in order to feel safe anymore. It is very abstract, it is you know a bit complicated I think, even to me.

So I don’t think I’m a person who – I’m feeling good but I’m always prepared for disaster. That’s what I would say. But not in the traumatic way I used to, like, the oh, good time never last. You know, something’s going to happen. This is not going to last. That’s what I have always felt. But now I sort of feel good and I, I’m more rational in my feeling good or feeling sad. I still feel sad and I feel like sadness is my refuge. I don’t think sadness is bad.

Because I feel like sadness is healing too. If we allow ourselves to feel sad, it might heal us, and we’re not afraid of being sad. I’m not afraid of being sad. It’s comforting sometimes.

Is recovery possible? yes. I do wonder, the one thing that I wonder about is once you’ve reached that or, or experienced that weakened state I wonder if you ever become fully strong again? Or if you constantly have to be aware that that is a weakened part of your – I don’t like the word.

So that you need to maybe be more conscious and aware of it than the other, than another person.

Yeah, that’s a good question. Well it’s made me, it’s made me weaker I guess in some regards and it’s made me stronger in others. I feel happier now, like, you know, the last couple of years have been shit, absolute shit. But I like, I love myself now. I know that I’m, I know that, I know that this is a new life for me that I’ve chosen and I’ve created it. Like I believe you create your reality with the choices you make and the, and the things that you say, you make it and I own the bad things that happened to me. Whenever those bad things were happening I never sat there and blamed a god or my, someone else or anything like that.

And what do I have now? I have sadness, I’ve had a lot of sadness. I’ve had that depression, I could have done without that. But I feel truer to myself, I feel more like myself. I feel like I’m showing my children how to live and that they always have the option of making choices in their life.

Recovery. I think it’s not to get back to how you were before, because that was your old self and you want to be developing your new self, because life is about changes and if you try to hang onto all those old things, you are going to find it really, really difficult

You want to be learning new ways of thinking and doing things and that’s what I see recovery as. I don’t see it as a permanent thing, I’ve now recovered and I’ll never have another bout of depression again. It’s like saying I’ll never break my ankle again. I might break my ankle again.

You’ve got to mature and it’s through adversity that you do mature and that they say it’s easy to steer a ship in calm waters. It’s when you get into those choppy seas you see the real character of a person. so yeah, having, having depression and the things that are associated with it and working through them and – and being open. I’m quite open to lots of things and a lot of people aren’t.

How different am I? Well look I was a card-carrying Liberal member when I left the money market and now I’m a Marxist. So yes, oh well I hope that I’ve become a lot more compassionate, a lot less arrogant. And you know, despite and despite these feelings – and it’s a weird thing that you can go, well I’ve got, I’ve got this feeling of impending doom and sadness – which I have now. Like I’ve got it, I can feel that now – but I’ve compartmentalised it. And I go, well that’s interesting.

So, yeah, I really hope that that it has made me a better person, you know, it’s a strange thing to say. And I don’t, I don’t recommend it as a method [smiles]. But yeah, you know, I’m happy with who I am

Right now I am looking at myself as a survivor. I look at myself as I have the strength to say no to this person who was abusing me mentally. And I can look into my life and say, I don’t need anyone to give me approval. And all the wrongs that I was doing before I can right it now.

I think when you are depressed you lose all dignity for yourself and you have to find the dignity through depression.

You’ve got to believe in yourself that you, you are the only one that can change things around you. Never wait for a partner, your child, a friend to change things for you. it’s a very hard journey, but it’s the real journey.

So you have the – recovery for me would mean being able to have a life where I am making a difference to the world, so some form of positive social interaction; where I’m happy inside myself, so I can be self contained; and recovery for me is to get to a point where I can live life without having something going on in my body or my mind that is like a toothache.

A mental toothache. Recovery for me is doing enough work, getting enough assistance to get to a point where the – even a mental toothache, or even – I can – I could put up with a – having a mental sniff, but anything more than that is something I would not consider recovery.

Living in an environment where I am able to grow, living in an environment where I’m able to continue to move forward, that’s recovery. If I’m in a world where there’s an abusive relationship, or someone living with me who’s constantly yelling or stressed, and my entire day is stressed as a result, that’s not recovery. Recovery is also something you think of in terms of oh, they’ve recovered. Recovery is, for me, something you can look at in terms of the future, but it’s also a present tense.

And you know what, I think – I consider depression also like a baptism of fire for dep-, for artistic people. You know that you’re really, you know that there’s something creative in you if you’ve got some sort of depression and it lasts for a while, you know. And if it stems from something like identity or, you know, being queer or something especially, it’s probably something to do with – perhaps you’re going to get really creative or perhaps there’s something in you that needs to be expressed in a way that’s probably not, you know, as conventional as sport, or maybe even sport, but you know, maybe something – writing or drawing or singing or music or whatever it might be. I think that that’s, that’s how you really know that you’re a creative person, is if you’ve got a little bit of depression, I think yeah.

So when you start – when a person starts to take charge of their life and be responsible with – for their life, not controlling their life because that may be another form, is that then you open up a whole lot of consequences and a whole lot of possibilities. And of course there’ll be, there’ll be pain and suffering in there too but there may be that great opportunity for joy and for freedom and, you know, all those other wonderful things, because you really need both sides of the coin, you can’t just have one, just have all joy and peace, we need to have the other side too like night and day.