Can you talk a little about those changes in your relationship with your wife, with a breastfeeding wife really?

Sure.

Yeah.

Sure, I think, it I mean it just, it’s more about time and I think it’s whether it’s, whether it’s about breastfeeding, a breastfeeding wife or just, you know, a start of a young family, you know, obviously you can do things together when theres just the two of you, you have no other concerns, no other responsibilities, you know, you my parents are at the other end of the country so, you know, we want to go and see them at the weekend it was a case of Friday night you jump in the car and you drive up there with another person involved you’ve got to make other decisions, you know, will the child travel well? It’s not quite such a drop of a hat sort of decision you have to think a lot more about what you do. And as far as the relationship is concerned, that, it again, you know, you kind of just accept and expect that things do change, we remained and are still very close and very loving, but theres somebody else there that has to be involved.

Don’t answer this question if you don’t want to, but in terms of breastfeeding what effect has that had on your marital relations?

The relationship generally or a sexual relationship?

Sexual relationship.

I don’t think the breastfeedings had any effect on our sexual relationship, I think the children have, but again I guess that’s to be expected, simply because there are other people around, you don’t always feel like it ’cause you’re much more tired, but it just becomes something that you have to perhaps think about a little more but certainly yes I mean children have, I don’t think breastfeedings had a direct effect.

So these lactating breasts were never a problem for you?

No, I mean occasionally you get yourself covered in milk but, you know, there you go it’s that’s the hazards of the job isn’t it [laughs]? But no, it didn’t, it didn’t cause us a problem, didn’t have a, I guess the only time would be if my wifes breasts were particularly sore if she, if shed had any problems but that was so few and far between that it, that it wasn’t really an issue.

Is there anything we haven’t covered from your perspective, it’s hard for me to know’

Yeah, no.

‘what sort of things you would find important?

No, no I don’t think so, I think weve covered most, most of the things, I mean I suppose really the whole thing about the way, the way we are, tends to be that we, we do have these, we do have clearly different roles in the family but I think that works well as a team, you know, we do different things and therefore bring different strengths to the whole to the whole situation, you know, we can’t always all be star players sometimes we have to we have to just sort of stand in the background and let people, let other people do things and our turn will come but, certainly as far as the relationship with the children has been concerned I have noticed that as time goes on Dad’s relationship becomes much stronger and that’s worth waiting for.

So what’s your partner’s role been with this, with a breastfed baby?

Well when I first had [daughter] I would, that’s again why I used the breast pump, because in the morning I always, it’s quite complicated this, in the morning I always did a, I always used the pump and one was for a night feed, and one was for an evening feed. So when he came from work he could feed her, so hed have that experience of being able to feed her as well, so rather than, because I know, I remember one of the ladies at the, at one of the clinics, she said, Oh it’s nice to breastfeed because you have the baby all to yourself, because when it’s a newborn you have all these people who want to touch and hold her but breastfeeding is something that only I can do’ and that’s , that is definitely true, but I did want him to be included in the experience which is why I, did the breast pump as well so hed be able to feed her, even if it’s just a little bit of a bottle, so hed usually feed her the first evening feed at around six thirty when he came from work.

How old was she when you started this routine?

How old was she? Oh we started it straight from hospital really, well no, probably two months, cause not straightaway cause I mean [sighs], it was difficult enough just to breastfeed her let alone use the pump so, probably three months in, three, four months in, I started using the pump, and I stopped using it around six, seven months cause I was just tired [laughs] and by then I had enough milk in the evenings, yeah, so that’s how we worked it but, I think he appreciated feeding her in the evenings cause it was that, it was the kind of thing that he wouldn’t normally do I mean.

What did he say about it?

He enjoyed it, he liked it, yeah he liked it he just sat there and shed, shed feed, but usually after shed had her feed she wanted more so then she came onto my breast and I breastfed her as well, but yeah she liked, she liked that feed and it wasn’t usually the feed that got her off to sleep though, it was more the entr’e before the main course [laughs].

So she would usually go to sleep on the breast in’

Yes.

‘the evening?

What’s your partner’s role in all of this?

I think if, for him it’s been a big learning curve just like it has been for me, I mean I think he went into fatherhood not knowing anything about breastfeeding and not really having any, assumptions about it I think, but he was very supportive of what I wanted to do and I think he, obviously felt that breastfeeding was the best thing for the baby as well. But I think when, when we had this disastrous situation with our first baby it made us both feel that this was something really important and that we really wanted to make sure that when we had future babies that, that we were able to for them to be breastfed if we could.

I’ve had other people say to me that they’re quite keen to introduce a bottle early on so that the father can feed the baby as well, do you want to comment on that?

Well we haven’t used a bottle, I mean we did actually try with the first baby once we knew the breastfeeding was okay and it wasn’t going to be a problem any more and she just wouldn’t take it and we, so we just gave up and, and I, I actually, no I must have tried it on each baby occasionally and it’s never managed, I’ve never, they’ve never taken it, so, but they’ve never really needed to either. And I don’t think a father feeding a baby from a bottle is the only way that a dad can bond with, with the baby they can cuddle them, they can talk to them, they can sing with, to them, they can take them for a walk in the pushchair, theres so many different ways, I don’t think feeding is the only way, plus I’ve always found that once they do become about one year old suddenly they’re talking, they’re, they become so interactive it’s like a whole new world opens up and they really start to notice dad in a big way then as well and, so, I think when they’re very little there is a really strong bond with the mother and they, the bond with the father gradually develops over time and gets stronger and stronger and stronger until, you know, at the age of five or something theres not much difference between the parents. But I don’t think my partner feels that hes missed out at all.

So along comes baby number one, or did, did your wife decide to breastfeed before the baby was born?

It was something at that stage as my wife was pregnant wed started to discuss and consider and it was something that shed said she would really give a good go to, always with the, the idea in the background that thered be some sort of a, a dual feeding with perhaps the odd bottle here and there to, some degree to allow me to be part of the whole process and also perhaps to make that being away from the child much, much easier ’cause at the time she had intended to go back to work but it was only really as baby arrived that that became real, you know, but it was all just, just a topic for discussion but I think when a baby arrives, the, you know, the reality dawns and I guess instincts take over as well, largely.

So that idea of giving the odd bottle so you could experience feeding the baby?

Sure, sure.

Where do you think that came from?

It, don’t know I think it’s just one of those things that people like to think that a father can be part of the whole process, and sometimes I think breastfeeding can be thought of as leaving dad out of the whole process so I think wed, the idea was that we would actually involve a bottle of formula in order to sort of augment that.

Had you been to the antenatal clinic?

We did, we went to antenatal classes right up until, well we missed the last one but also we missed the one about how to look after the baby, we did all the rest of it but we missed the last one because baby was a week early.

Was breastfeeding discussed at those?

I must say I can’t remember particularly although I do believe it was on breastfeeding was something that was discussed and, again I’m pretty sure it was either the last one that we went to or the one that we missed that was involved.

So you don’t remember a great deal?

Don’t remember a great deal about it no, no, it was all a bit of a blur really at the time.

That’s interesting because I’ve heard other people talk about their lives and introducing a bottle

Sure.

‘so that father can feed.

Yeah.

And it’s not something that I’m greatly familiar with

Mmm.

‘you know, I’m trying to get to the bottom of exactly why it happens in this country.

I think I know I guess there are a couple of reasons that I can see, yes it’s one that does involve one reason that it does involve dad that perhaps otherwise wouldn’t be directly involved with the whole process and to some degree I suppose it gives mum a bit of a break at that time as well, that’s the idea, to be honest we never did it, our first, my daughter wouldn’t touch anything out of a bottle, she just wouldn’t, some my wife tried to express and then give the breastmilk in a bottle, she wasn’t interested in that either, so we just, it just fell by the wayside, we never pursued it and that was the end of it really.

So you were okay about that?

Yes, I was fine with that we, not consciously I don’t think, but we got round my involvement with the baby mainly by a part of the whole pro

There was a couple of nights when I, you know when my husband who hasn’t got so much breastfeeding background, you know, [daughter] was awake quite a lot in the night and he said, ‘Oh, you know, well why did you why are you breastfeeding anyway, why don’t you just bottle feed’, you know that kind of thing but he didn’t really have a background in either way and the only background that he has is just through friends that hes seen so hes not really got any knowledge on it really [laughs] so but I talked my way out of that one and convinced him that he was talking rubbish and not me.

What did you say?

Actually, I think I got quite angry ’cause I think I was wound up at the time anyway because the baby was crying and, you know, distressed, and it wasn’t down to breastfeeding, it was just down to, were both over tired, were not, you know, it is, only being back from hospital a couple of days, that kind of thing, just she wanted to be awake and I wanted to be asleep and I think I got quite snappy and basically said, ‘Breastfeeding is the only way [laughs] [daughter] you know this is the only thing I’m going to do, she is only so young, you know’, I mean I don’t think I’d have ever been pushed into anything else but, you never know [laughs] so, yeah, but from there, I mean it wasn’t plain sailing, I don’t think either breast or bottle feeding ever is plain sailing ’cause babies have problems and it’s not necessarily related to their feeding but they have problems.

Introducing a bottle was never an issue for us, it was never ever going to be an option, it wasn’t something that I ever considered and I know that my, the things that my husband missed out on when she was very, very young was not the feeding, I could feed and he could do everything else and had I let him I think he quite willingly would have done everything else but, no [laughs] we never really communicated enough right at first I mean up to about six months after that, we kind of worked our way around everything but, he never missed out on feeding her, and especially once she started solids, he realised that actually it was a chore for him and he really could have done without it and we started solids, just finger foods we never spoon fed [daughter] so obviously for the first couple of months, may be months, may be weeks, the food that had started on the table ended up on the floor and he used to say things like, ‘Well, I’ll just cut the middle man out and throw it straight on the floor’ you know so, he realised actually how much he didn’t miss out on her on the feeding thing and then, and after a couple of months he took advantage of the fact that I was breastfeeding and that I, it was a huge comfort for [daughter] and it wasn’t just food and if she fell over or she cried and he felt difficult in that situation then he would hand her back, you know, ‘She needs, she needs food’ and it, and it would calm her down straight away and she, you know and she was never a kind of crying baby, never, it wasn’t ever something that you would say she was, ’cause.

So apart from that one time, he was totally supportive of the feeding, right behind you by the sound of it?

Yeah, I mean he, I think he was, he was a hundred per cent behind me doing what I wanted to do and if at any point I had felt uncomfortable about it, then I’m sure he would have, you know, weighed up the options with me but he, from an outsider point of view, because since then weve looked back and weve talked about you know what situations we were in and things and, I think the thing that he found hard was the fact that I didn’t let him in enough, not anything to do with the feeding, you know just not enough playing with her, a lot of people don’t realise that little n

Has your attitude towards the breast changed?

Well, that’s very interesting the breast and sexuality in a way, before I breastfed I think my breasts were very, a sexual sort of part of my, you know, life, and when I started breastfeeding then both myself and my husband didn’t know how to relate to this [laughs] to this object, you know, this thing and in fact still noticed were really quite timid about it, and very much for the time where I’m breastfeeding, so for [son] almost a year and for [second son] is now eight weeks, the breast is essentially belonging to the baby really and for me as on my personal, you know, experience of it is like I’m quite proud of the beautiful ballooning, beautiful pink warm things, but they’re not sexual any more in a way, I find them beautiful but it’s beautiful in a different sense, it’s sensual, sensual, but not sexual, that’s what I would say. So it’s a, you know, my reflection, my relationship to my breasts have changed and it, they probably change again when I stop breastfeeding, because when, I knew when I stop breastfeeding with [son] they would, they would at, I was wishing for another child and I was granted that wish so I am doing it again and perhaps, I’m really glad that I’m doing it and I think, I might miss it, you know, I might one, if I stopped breastfeeding this time if I have friends breastfeeding I’ll probably feel like, ‘Oh that was so nice, that was such a nice time to spend with my child, it’s a wonderful time when, yeah well actually when my toddler is away and I can really have a feed quietly and just have to look, you know, looking into my baby’s eyes and hes looking into my eyes, there is nothing else that matters, you’re really in the moment, and it’s very special.

What do you think your husband would say if I asked him that question, if his attitude towards the breasts has changed?

Oh, hes very open about it he says, ‘I’m, you know, I’m not sure whether I can touch them or whether’, you know, were not bothered about the milk leaking out but in a way they, they have another function and were quite happy, you know, kissing differently and having another sort of routine of loving, but, and I think were quite happy both of us just giving it to the child for the time being, so I’m not sure [laughs] it would be a good question, you know, perhaps he would say something totally different, I have no idea, but, it seems that we both happy having that, you know, have, giving that gift to our baby, it’s part of being parents I think and that’s probably what he would say to that, I cannot be sure [laughs].

And whenever, you know, my son would come home from school I maybe would be feeding her, she wouldve slept on my knee, I sat and we did his homework beside us, you know, tried to involve him that way, sometimes you sort of feel with whenever you’ve the two that hes not getting the attention, or not getting up on your knee as often ’cause you always seem to be feeding her, but you just tried to make a special time for him.

You’ve got a five year gap’

[Mm-hm].

‘did you notice, can you talk about that, what was the impact of a new baby in his life at that stage? What you said it’s like starting all over again’

Uh-huh.

‘for yourself can you comment on all of that a bit more?

Well he was very supportive about breastfeeding.

Your son was?

My son was and.

Did he remember it from his own times do you think?

No, he didn’t remember about breastfeeding, the first night he came into the hospital I did feed in front of him, but we had a little gift for her, from her to him to try and he was more taken with that, he didn’t actually notice feeding and, the next night he came in he said, ‘How do, how do you feed Mum?’ and before that whenever we had been going and getting things for the baby he was looking at bottles and I said, ‘No son, hopefully we won’t need bottles’ and he just took it that was alright. So I showed him in the hospital how, how I fed her, and it was like, ‘[gasps] Oh my’ you know, and with being on a dairy farm, you know, and you kind of, you [laughs], you relate it yourself to a cow, you know [laughs], type of thing, and he knew how that worked, and it was, ‘Mummy, did I?’ and I said, ‘You were fed with these son too’, you know, and, ‘Was I really Mummy?’, I went, ‘Yes’, and I can remember in the hospital going down then and my husband was looking after my daughter and, and he was about to, I mean I just wanted to nip down to get yourself freshened up for five minutes and she started to cry and he came down, knocked on the door, ‘Mummy, Mummy, Mummy, you have to feed her shes looking for a feed come on hurry up’ [laughs] so you talk about feeding on demand [laughs]. She wasn’t the only one that was demanding. But he took to it, you know, it was whenever you come home it was like, oh he, he would go, ‘Get your belly out Mummy, Mummy’s got two big belly’s’, and I found it actually strange because, my cousin, his wife had a second one and their first child actually talked about mummy’s big belly’s as well, you know, and I can remember my son drawing a picture for me over the Christmas holidays just after she was born and there was Mummy with her two big belly’s feeding and I went, ‘Okay’ [laughs]. But no, he was very supportive and.

So theres been no jealousy?

No, he was fine, good. We didn’t realise but he maybe was a bit more insecure at, at school, you know, a bit tearful, but at home I suppose whenever I was home, whenever he come home and seen I was at home, you know, still here, he was fine, we hadn’t noticed it at home, and he was very good with her and would run off to get the stuff to change the nappies, and cream and everything he could do that way.

So he was a big help to you?

He was a great help and he was very good with her and, and, was getting his toys to share with her, you know, he thought he had asked for a baby [laughs].

Maybe

You spoke of the older child having problems with the younger baby, can you tell me what that was, describe it for me?

It all started, I stayed one night in hospital but the well no two nights second time round and, he arrived and on the Tuesday night, and I asked my husband to bring Shivam our older baby in on the Wednesday, so ’cause I knew wed have lots of friends and family around afterwards, I wanted just to be us four and just enjoy that moment an, up until that point apparently Shivam had been quite happy at home without me not missing me at all, my husband brought him in, and I think it actually hit him that mummy hadn’t been about when he actually saw me in the hospital bed and bless him he became really quiet, just came and laid in bed with me for about ten minutes, he didn’t say a word, sucked his thumb then he seemed ok, showed him new baby, got him to hold new baby and all those nice little things, and we got some fantastic snaps out of if, and then the next day I came home, my mother-in-law went to pick Shivam up from nursery and she was, she went and picked him up and he was sitting in a corner by himself crying and, for a child who’s never, he never cried, even as a baby, he just wasn’t, he was very content very happy and she was, it broke her heart she said she saw him in the corner and you could tell he was thinking, and he was there crying and he came over to her and she was just, I’ve never seen him like that, and he must, it must have hit him that something had changed, a) that mummy wasn’t there, he saw mummy yesterday with a diff, another baby and he was only fourteen months old as well you don’t think they have that much understanding but he certainly did, came home and at first he was really excited because theres lots of balloons about and he was going wow, wow looking at everything and I think baby was asleep at this point really happy to see mum and then baby woke up, this was the first day we were home and he didn’t want any of us to pick him up he was crying absolutely distraught, why is his grand-dad looking at him picking him up, why is mummy picking him up, why is mummy disappearing for an hour and a half at a time don’t understand very upset very distraught it was very hard for the first ten days he took it very hard.

What could you do to ease it for him?

What we tried doing was at first I’d have Shivam sitting next to me whilst I was breastfeeding but then hed want to sit with me and wouldn’t let baby feed and then would end up crying and then baby would cry as well so that became distressing for me and I didn’t feel as if I could give my all to breastfeeding baby at that point either and I’d find at that point actually I was clock watching I’d be thinking, ‘I need to get this over and done with and it was horrible because I knew my other baby Shivam ’cause at fourteen months hes still a baby, to me he is he was crying downstairs and it was very distressing but the easiest option then for us was that I would go into a separate room where he couldn’t see me feed, and couldn’t see me holding baby and somebody else could play and give him attention and then, as soon as I’d finished breastfeeding, I’d hand baby over to somebody else either grandma or husband or grand-dad and then I would look after Shivam and give him his attention and his time and I think that kind of worked eventually.

Did you feel incredibly stretched?

Yes I remember one particular evening when I thought of, I thought he was over it, and the reason why he seemed better was that I eventually started breastfeeding in the same room. Once hed calmed down and was happy, I would breastfeed in the same room, I wouldn’t disappear and he was ok and then we had some friends and family ov

And my husband was, did his best. But, you know, I mean, he had a fortnight as his paternity leave and then my mum came down to stay with us for that third week. My dad has multiple sclerosis and so he had to be put in respite care in order for my mum to come down. And so it just meant, you know, that’s complicated in terms of getting my mum to stay, but she kind of rescued us for a week. But yeah, my, you know, my husband would, would find me, like, pressed up against the window when he came home from work because I was just so desperate for, to hand over this screaming baby to somebody else. And I could just feel that I could detach myself from this baby that I couldn’t make happy. And sort of, you know, my husband would come home and, and I said, Just take him for half an hour. Even if he spends that half an hour screaming. I just, I was going to stand in the garden because I just, was just, yeah, was a complete mess. And my husband would you know, got up at six in the morning, do a full day at work, and come home to be handed this screaming baby. And it just, I just needed that half an hour. And then I’d go, OK, right. Let’s start again. And it just, yeah, it was just never, it just felt never-ending, I guess, at that point. And, yeah, I think my husband and I really struggled to be this parenting team at that point because he, we were just so exhausted. We had nothing left to be able to support each other and we couldn’t support, you know, we felt we couldn’t support ourselves. And everything was being, you know, focused towards our baby. And it was on my shoulders to fix it. I think that was the hard thing, is that, you know, my husband could be supportive, he could try and rock our, rock our baby to sleep, he could, you know, look after him, he could make me a cup of tea, but actually the only person who had the solution was me. And actually the solution wasn’t happening. And, and I think that was the awful thing, is that me to sort this problem out. And I couldn’t. Tried everything and I couldn’t.